Does school size really matter?

Discussions for fans of all teams and all classes of South Carolina High School Football.
FootballFan4343
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Re: Does school size really matter?

Post by FootballFan4343 »

EmeraldCityEagle98 wrote:All this long convo and it just is what it is! AN EXCUSE not to win! TL Hanna is not the largest school in 5a AND they play multiple players both ways. Why are they winning? BECAUSE THEY HAVE A COACH THAT DOESN'T MAKE THESE KIND OF EXCUSES. PERIOD
Again, you are missing the point. The facts show that historically the state champions are the larger schools in each classification. The smallest schools in each classification rarely, if ever, win state championships.
Your statement about TL Hanna is in fact true, they are not the largest school in 5A. They are right in the middle of 5A enrollment. So, while they aren't the largest, they certainly aren't the smallest. But, they are a mere 25 students from being in the top half of 5A schools in terms of enrollment. So don't play the card that they are this tiny school that is "beating the odds".

EmeraldCityEagle98
Greenwood Eagles
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Re: Does school size really matter?

Post by EmeraldCityEagle98 »

FootballFan4343 wrote:
EmeraldCityEagle98 wrote:All this long convo and it just is what it is! AN EXCUSE not to win! TL Hanna is not the largest school in 5a AND they play multiple players both ways. Why are they winning? BECAUSE THEY HAVE A COACH THAT DOESN'T MAKE THESE KIND OF EXCUSES. PERIOD
Again, you are missing the point. The facts show that historically the state champions are the larger schools in each classification. The smallest schools in each classification rarely, if ever, win state championships.
Your statement about TL Hanna is in fact true, they are not the largest school in 5A. They are right in the middle of 5A enrollment. So, while they aren't the largest, they certainly aren't the smallest. But, they are a mere 25 students from being in the top half of 5A schools in terms of enrollment. So don't play the card that they are this tiny school that is "beating the odds".

TL Hanna is playing multiple players both ways so obviously whatever enrollment they have isn't helping them much. If your theory is true then they should have lost to Dorman who I believe is 2nd in enrollment. Hanna wins because they have a championship minded coach. Not because of enrollment. Dutch fork isn't the biggest 5a school either. Both will be playing for the 5a title I believe. Both have good coaches and neither were anything in football better their respective coaches got there.

EmeraldCityEagle98
Greenwood Eagles
Posts: 188
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Re: Does school size really matter?

Post by EmeraldCityEagle98 »

EmeraldCityEagle98 wrote:
FootballFan4343 wrote:
EmeraldCityEagle98 wrote:All this long convo and it just is what it is! AN EXCUSE not to win! TL Hanna is not the largest school in 5a AND they play multiple players both ways. Why are they winning? BECAUSE THEY HAVE A COACH THAT DOESN'T MAKE THESE KIND OF EXCUSES. PERIOD
Again, you are missing the point. The facts show that historically the state champions are the larger schools in each classification. The smallest schools in each classification rarely, if ever, win state championships.
Your statement about TL Hanna is in fact true, they are not the largest school in 5A. They are right in the middle of 5A enrollment. So, while they aren't the largest, they certainly aren't the smallest. But, they are a mere 25 students from being in the top half of 5A schools in terms of enrollment. So don't play the card that they are this tiny school that is "beating the odds".

TL Hanna is playing multiple players both ways so obviously whatever enrollment they have isn't helping them much. If your theory is true then they should have lost to Dorman who I believe is 2nd in enrollment. Hanna wins because they have a championship minded coach. Not because of enrollment. Dutch fork isn't the biggest 5a school either. Both will be playing for the 5a title I believe. Both have good coaches and neither were anything in football before their respective coaches got there.

StateChampsGHS
Greenwood Eagles
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Location: Greenwood, SC

Re: Does school size really matter?

Post by StateChampsGHS »

School size don't matter!!! It's all about the right coaches and players. Certain towns produce good athletes year after year.

When was the last time Wando, Carolina Forest, Ashley Ridge, West Ashley, White Knoll, Cane Bay, Woodmont, JL Mann, Easley, Socaster, Wade Hampton, Riverside, St. James, South Florence, Colleton County and etc...won a state title??? No disrespect to those teams but those schools don't produce athletes or have championship style coaches like Dorman, Byrnes, Gaffney, Northwestern, Sumter, Dutch Fork, TL Hanna, Greenwood or etc.

Teams like Lamar, Abbeville, Dillion and Hartsville can beat teams like Wando, Carolina Forest, Ashley Ridge, West Ashley, White Knoll, Cane Bay, JL Mann, Easley, Socaster, Wade Hampton, Riverside, St. James, South Florence, Colleton County on a regular basis.
Greenwood High Eagles 2012

Go Tigers
Conway Tigers
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Re: Does school size really matter?

Post by Go Tigers »

I agree.....Coaching, student athletes, community support and a good strength and conditioning program all play a huge roll in being competitive on regular basis. Most on here are just thinking "football only" when they consider the question that started all this discussion. With that said, to say enrollment numbers, which equals a larger talent pool to draw from, doesn't have something to do with winning on a regular basis is wrong. Consider this.....last school year ('17-'18) there were 21 team state titles awarded by the SCHSL. Wando and Dorman, which are numbers 1 and 2 in enrollment in the state in 5A, won 9 of the 21 titles awarded in all sports. Wando has competed for 3 titles already this school year winning 1.

FootballFan4343
HS Football Fanatic
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Re: Does school size really matter?

Post by FootballFan4343 »

EmeraldCityEagle98 wrote:
FootballFan4343 wrote:
EmeraldCityEagle98 wrote:All this long convo and it just is what it is! AN EXCUSE not to win! TL Hanna is not the largest school in 5a AND they play multiple players both ways. Why are they winning? BECAUSE THEY HAVE A COACH THAT DOESN'T MAKE THESE KIND OF EXCUSES. PERIOD
Again, you are missing the point. The facts show that historically the state champions are the larger schools in each classification. The smallest schools in each classification rarely, if ever, win state championships.
Your statement about TL Hanna is in fact true, they are not the largest school in 5A. They are right in the middle of 5A enrollment. So, while they aren't the largest, they certainly aren't the smallest. But, they are a mere 25 students from being in the top half of 5A schools in terms of enrollment. So don't play the card that they are this tiny school that is "beating the odds".

TL Hanna is playing multiple players both ways so obviously whatever enrollment they have isn't helping them much. If your theory is true then they should have lost to Dorman who I believe is 2nd in enrollment. Hanna wins because they have a championship minded coach. Not because of enrollment. Dutch fork isn't the biggest 5a school either. Both will be playing for the 5a title I believe. Both have good coaches and neither were anything in football better their respective coaches got there.
Let me repeat, AGAIN. I never said the bigger school always wins. I have said the enrollment does matter and the facts show it in terms of state championships. VERY rarely do the teams at the bottom of each classification compete for state championships and furthermore, the ones with continued success, historically, are larger schools in that classification. Never once have I said that ALL of the larger schools, in each classification compete for state championships. Instead, the facts HAVE SHOWN, that the smallest schools in each classification do not regularly compete for State Championships, instead its the teams that are in the top 50% of enrollment in each classification. So, despite what you want to continue to beat home, the facts tell a different story.

Of your list of teams that haven't won a state title, many of those are in the bottom half or even some are the smallest in terms of classification: Riverside, Wade Hampton, Socastee, St. James, Easley, JL Mann, Woodmont, Colleton County, South Florence. So, I would say that the fact they are continuously playing as the the smallest schools in their classification, that would play a role.
In the case of Ashley Ridge, West Ashley, White Knoll, and Cane Bay, they are some of the larger schools. But also, keep in mind they are relatively newer and of the schools you mentioned that have a "championship style" schools like Northwestern and Dorman took them 20 plus years to win a state title.
As for your schools you mention in your list, every one of those are in the top half of enrollment in their classification. In fact: Byrnes is the 5th largest, Dorman is the 2nd largest, Sumter is #6, Dutch Fork #13.
In the case of Northwestern and Greenwood, they have struggled in the playoffs since the 5A classification (which made them a middle of the road school enrollment size), whereas when they played 4A-II they were two of the biggest D-2 schools competing. NW and Greenwood's state championships this millenium were all won at the 4A-II level where they were one of the biggest schools.
As for your final statement that Lamar, Abbeville, Dillon, and HArtsville could regularly beat those teams, first off, we don't know as they dont "regularly" play them. Secondly, even if they would, that doesn't negate the fact that has been made over and over again.
So, let me repeat....Enrollment size does play a role in competing for state championships.
The FACTS show that the smallest schools in each classification RARELY EVER compete for state championships. They may have a year where they make a run, but they never have continued success.
Why you may ask? Because when they get to the playoffs, they play bigger schools, which then beat them. So then kids don't want to come out and play for a program that always loses, which in turn leads to good coaches not coming, which in turn makes the program worse, which makes people not come to the games, which means the $$ don't roll in, and so the cycle continues.
I appreciate your opinion, but look at the facts. Please, show me a school at or near the bottom of their classification (in terms of enrollment) that consistently competes for State Championships. The fact is, you can't, because I tried and the facts just aren't there.

FootballFan4343
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Re: Does school size really matter?

Post by FootballFan4343 »

EmeraldCityEagle98 wrote:
FootballFan4343 wrote:
EmeraldCityEagle98 wrote:All this long convo and it just is what it is! AN EXCUSE not to win! TL Hanna is not the largest school in 5a AND they play multiple players both ways. Why are they winning? BECAUSE THEY HAVE A COACH THAT DOESN'T MAKE THESE KIND OF EXCUSES. PERIOD
Again, you are missing the point. The facts show that historically the state champions are the larger schools in each classification. The smallest schools in each classification rarely, if ever, win state championships.
Your statement about TL Hanna is in fact true, they are not the largest school in 5A. They are right in the middle of 5A enrollment. So, while they aren't the largest, they certainly aren't the smallest. But, they are a mere 25 students from being in the top half of 5A schools in terms of enrollment. So don't play the card that they are this tiny school that is "beating the odds".

TL Hanna is playing multiple players both ways so obviously whatever enrollment they have isn't helping them much. If your theory is true then they should have lost to Dorman who I believe is 2nd in enrollment. Hanna wins because they have a championship minded coach. Not because of enrollment. Dutch fork isn't the biggest 5a school either. Both will be playing for the 5a title I believe. Both have good coaches and neither were anything in football better their respective coaches got there.
Once again, I have never said the biggest always win. My point continues to be that Enrollment does matter for this reason: The teams are the bottom of each classification (in terms of enrollment) NEVER consistently compete for state championships. Just look at the facts, I have and they are crystal clear. The larger schools in each classification, have a clear advantage when it comes to competing for state championships.

eagle93
Greenwood Eagles
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Re: Does school size really matter?

Post by eagle93 »

FBF. You looked completely over where I said in those years they beat those power D1 schools. In 2000 Dorman won D1. They lost to Greenwood who won D2. They beat those D1 schools consistently during the years they competed for titles. In 2012 they beat them all. The non-conference was always D1. Now the non-conference is smaller and weaker. They can't even win region and beat teams that never beat them before now. Leadership.

FootballFan4343
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Re: Does school size really matter?

Post by FootballFan4343 »

eagle93 wrote:FBF. You looked completely over where I said in those years they beat those power D1 schools. In 2000 Dorman won D1. They lost to Greenwood who won D2. They beat those D1 schools consistently during the years they competed for titles. In 2012 they beat them all. The non-conference was always D1. Now the non-conference is smaller and weaker. They can't even win region and beat teams that never beat them before now. Leadership.
To be honest, I didn't see that comment, likely it got lost in my responses. But, to your point, you are using one team and a couple of seasons to attempt to prove the point that school enrollment doesn't matter. So, lets compare Greenwood and Dorman, shall we? You mention that Greenwood "consistently" has beaten teams like Dorman. However, Greenwood sports an 8-15 record all-time against Dorman. Those years included some pretty good Greenwood teams.
Now, lets use Byrnes. Greenwood is 2-9 vs. Byrnes
Lets try Northwestern: Greenwood is 1-5
Gaffney: Greenwood is 10-12-3
That was just a quick look. The one consistency is those are programs which you have compared Greenwood to in terms of "premiere" programs, yet the Eagles have a pretty poor record against them. Assuming these are all elite programs and, according to you, all have elite athletes with great coaching. What is the difference? ENROLLMENT!

Look, we can argue back and forth all day, but the no one has countered this FACT
Historically the schools the bottom of each classification (in terms of enrollment) do not compete for state championships. Thats 5A, 4A, 3A, 2A or 1A. It just doesn't happen. The facts show that.

Instead, the argument I continue to get is these one off scenarios where people say, well that year Greenwood went 15-0, they beat the D-1 champ. Or, we beat 'em all one year. So, your argument against enrollment not mattering is based on a couple of "historic years". If so, yes I will give you that, if you have a "historic team", then enrollment probably doesn't matter for that season. But, this thread was started talking about enrollment mattering to the overall long term success of a program. The facts show that the teams at the bottom of each classification (in terms of enrollment) do not show sustained success in their classification.

FootballFan4343
HS Football Fanatic
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Re: Does school size really matter?

Post by FootballFan4343 »

Go Tigers wrote:I agree.....Coaching, student athletes, community support and a good strength and conditioning program all play a huge roll in being competitive on regular basis. Most on here are just thinking "football only" when they consider the question that started all this discussion. With that said, to say enrollment numbers, which equals a larger talent pool to draw from, doesn't have something to do with winning on a regular basis is wrong. Consider this.....last school year ('17-'18) there were 21 team state titles awarded by the SCHSL. Wando and Dorman, which are numbers 1 and 2 in enrollment in the state in 5A, won 9 of the 21 titles awarded in all sports. Wando has competed for 3 titles already this school year winning 1.
You hit the nail on the head. Its what I have been trying to say. No, larger enrollment doesn't guarantee success but the facts show that it goes a long way towards giving you a head start. The enrollment issue is even more present in football where 25 or so players are needed to field a team. Whereas in basketball if you have 2-3 GREAT players, you can beat anyone since there are only 5 on the floor at a time.
In football, the facts have shown that the smallest schools in each classification (in terms of enrollment) do not show sustained success. PLEASE someone show me where I am incorrect on that fact. The reality is you can't. So, to say enrollment does not play a factor is just untrue. Enrollment may not be the most important in a team's success, but it does help to have a bigger enrollment, that is a fact.

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